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(E) Sunic's interview in Pravda
By Nenad N. Bach | Published  02/26/2002 | Published Articles | Unrated
(E) Sunic's interview in Pravda
I 1. i 2. svj. rat bili su imperijalisticki ratovi, ratovi koje su vodili 
veliki imperiji: Velika Britanija, Francuska, Njemacka, Austro-Ugarska, 
Rusija, SAD (predsjednicki kandidat Pat Buchanan kaze kako je i SAD 
iperijalisticka drzava, ali tek nakon sto je okupirao Filipine, 1900.), dok 
je Srbija bila na putu da postane mini-imperij. Nacionalizam je nesto drugo, 
grobar imperijalnih sila, patriotizam. Mnogi autori tvrde, da je 
nacionalizam pretpostavka i preduvjet za demokraciju. 
rudolf arapovic 
Sunic's interview. 
Greetings from Russia Mr. Sunic! We at PRAVDA.Ru are very pleased that you 
have agreed to become one of our columnists. As a Croatian diplomat, you 
are able to share with our readers valuable commentary on today's Croatia. 
We feel that by conducting this interview, our readers will come away with 
a better understanding of who you are and your basic political stances. 
Please tell our readers a little about yourself. What experiences have you 
had that have shaped your outlook on politics and life in general? When did 
you first become interested in politics? Also, please tell us something 
about your diplomatic career. 
Politics was part of family life. My father, a Catholic attorney and a 
former political prisoner, was constantly at loggerheads with the Yugoslav 
communist authorities. Back in communist Yugoslavia, I expressed my 
resentments against the mendacity of the system by dropping out and 
becoming a hippy and even hiking down to India. Being reared on books in 
several languages helped me to complete my university degrees and put 
myself into a wider perspective. I like to speculate as to how my 
interlocutor or enemy perceives me. This requires a great deal of 
intellectual effort and emotional detachment. After the breakup of 
Yugoslavia, I was called by Tudjman's government to do some diplomatic l 
obbying for Croatia. 
What is your position on the Croat-Serb war? At one point, it was reported 
that Serbia and Croatia had actually reached a compromise that would have 
stopped the war, but Croatia was pressured by the West to form an alliance 
with the Bosnian Muslims and to fight against the Serbs. Is there any truth 
to this? In your opinion, did outside powers benefit from the civil war? 
I must have heard a myriad of rumors and conspiracy theories regarding the 
breakup of Yugoslavia in 1991. I do not blame so much the Serbs as I do the 
decade-long EU and USA upholding of the frail legality of the multiethnic 
brew called Yugoslavia. Yugoslavia was the product of Versailles architects 
in 1919 with a refill of the allied blessing in 1945 in Potsdam. Slobodan 
Milosevic strictly knew that; notably while trying to salvage Yugoslavia by 
force, which actually sped up its forceful demise. Hence, the real reason 
he is paying a hefty price now in the Hague. 
It is known that many Croatian communists became nationalists after 
Croatia's succession from Yugoslavia. Were these conversions genuine, or 
were these politicians merely opportunists? 
The latter is true. However, almost all former Croatian communists are now 
ultra-liberal free marketers. This is a trademark not just of Croatia but 
of all post-communist countries, including Russia. What is worrisome, 
however, is not so much the make-believe volume of civic and democratic 
parlance of the new political class; rather, it is the shiftiness and 
phenomenal feel-good lightness by which it betrayed its former Marxist 
mythology. If some other political myth holds sway tomorrow, the same 
people will flock to new secular deities with no feelings of guilt. 
While Serbia has traditionally had close ties with Russia, Croats seem to 
identify more with Western European nations, such as Germany. In fact, it 
has been reported that many volunteers from Western nations came to Croatia 
to participate in the civil war. It was also reported that many Russians 
and other Slavs participated on the side of Serbia. Do you have any 
knowledge of this being the case? If so, to what extent did foreign 
volunteers participate in the civil war? 
Over 2000 foreign volunteers from Chile to Canada, from the USA to 
Australia, and served at some point in early Croatian rag-tag units during 
the so-called Homeland War. This was partly due to cultural affinities and 
partly to the strong anticommunist feelings of many. The Serb-dominated 
Yugoslav army displayed the communist red star insignia until 1995, which 
invariably boosted the early Croatian separatist cause among European and 
US conservatives. The unfortunate religious cleavage between the Orthodox 
East and Catholic West violently erupted to the fore. Many Western 
volunteers and many Croat expatriates came to fight. I cannot be more 
specific at this stage. 
What is your opinion of Ante Pavelic, the Croatian leader during WW2? It 
has been claimed that the Ustashe government committed many atrocities 
against Serbs, Jews, and other non-Croats. How much of this is propaganda 
and how much is true? 
The English historian Edward Carr wrote that, before one studies history, 
one must study a historian. Failure to look at different, i.e., revisionist 
historical accounts, leads to misperceptions, paranoia, and, eventually, 
armed conflicts. The former Yugoslav propaganda had committed a mistake by 
hyper-inflating Croatian fascist crimes of WWII. Tudjman in 1990, dared to 
demolish this antifascist victimology. His public speeches, given the 
widespread foreign media prone "historical linkages," soon earned him a bad 
reputation among liberal pressure groups, both in the USA and Europe. 
Moreover, his speeches were a big enough reason to alter the mindset of the 
local, largely rural, Serbs in Croatia, who were already whipped into a 
frenzy by Milosevic's communist propaganda. The spiral of fear and 
misperception, backed by mythical and histrionic narratives on both sides, 
resulted in war in 1991. 
As for Ante Pavelic, the leader of WWII Croatia, his role must be put into 
his epoch, i.e., along with the Romanian, Corneliu Codreanu, the Fleming, 
Staf De Clercq, the Englishman, Oswald Mosley, the Russian-American, 
Anastase Vonsiatsky, the Spaniard, Franco, etc., and other real or would-be 
fascist leaders. 
During my visit to Croatia, I came away with the impression that many 
Croats cheered when NATO launched its military campaign against Serbia. In 
your opinion, do ordinary Croats still hold such hostile feelings towards 
Unfortunately, this is largely true. Many Croats, even in academic circles, 
use this type of "negative legitimization." Serbs are often used as 
scapegoats for Croatia's own failures, be it in the field of diplomacy or 
economy. However, centralistic-minded Serbs have traditionally nourished a 
cult of a "chosen people" destined to play a leading role in policing the 
Balkans. Hence, the reason that they alienated other non-Serb peoples. The 
end result was war. 
>From the Berlin Congress in 1878 until 1991, Serbs were the darlings of the 
anti-German Western powers. I think that, eventually, these two similar 
peoples will be on speaking terms. Croats must realize that Serbs will 
remain their first neighbors. However, from a wider anthropological 
perspective, it is worth alerting the political class in the EU and USA 
that multicultural, let alone multiracial states, never last long. Such 
ideas are uncontrolled and irresponsible Third-world immigration, the 
American government, and the EU are paving the way for their own 
balkanization. The case of multiethnic ex-Yugoslavia speaks volumes. 
The current Croatian government has indicated that it would like to join 
both the EU and NATO. If Croatia is accepted into either of these 
organizations, what changes do you think might take place in Croatia? In 
your view, would these changes be positive or negative? 
There are no "yes's," "no's," or "ifs." Joining the EU and NATO is the only 
option for Croatia, short of becoming a pariah state. The only problems are 
the Croatian methods. The Croatian political class does not know the 
linkages, the possible setbacks, the terms of juridical engagements, etc. 
Croatia does not have civil society, as it was destroyed after WWII by the 
Yugoslav leader Tito and his communist followers, who were very largely 
made up of the semi-rural, bewildered populace. The Croatian public does 
not fully know the underpinnings of the EU or NATO. It envisions entry into 
these two supra-national bodies as entry into a self-serving rich men's 
country club. What Croatia needs first is total de-communization. Without 
this, Croatia will constantly be plagued by a traumatic lack of 
decision-making. At this stage, Croatia, similar to the Russian political 
class, is engaged in broken English mimicry of all things Western. 
You are known as a very outspoken anticommunist. Please explain the reasons 
for your opposition to communism? In addition, you have said that Croatia's 
current, main threats are the "Western" ideals of capitalism and 
consumerism. If you consider yourself to be an anticommunist as well as an 
anticapitalist, what political system would you like to see take shape in 
Croatia, a sort of third-position? 
There are different forms of anticommunism. However, being an anticommunist 
does not presuppose that one must, therefore, embrace its only present 
counterpart, i.e., global capitalism. Both systems have inherent principles 
of egalitarianism, economism, and universalism, i.e., the belief in the 
abstract ideology of "human rights" and the dogma of perpetual economic 
growth. Due to its violent transparency, poor economic results, and 
negative social-biological selection, along with the nameless topography of 
terror, communism lost its intellectual appeal. By contrast, modern 
capitalism, which operates today under the term of "globalism," is more 
successful in promoting the same totalitarian goals, albeit with different 
rhetoric. It is utopia achieved. Many failed communist practices are now 
fully operational, albeit under different labels in the EU and USA. Former 
paleo-communist political romanticism, such as multiculturalism, 
multiracialism, academic self-censorship, intellectual opportunism, which 
is known as political correctness, and the loss of the sense of the tragic, 
is in full swing in the West. Moreover, unlike communism, modern 
liberalism, i.e., global capitalism, does not leave visible traces of blood 
and cohorts of martyrs in its wake. Its destructive longevity is 
You have also spoken out against blind nationalism, which, in your opinion, 
was used to manipulate the peoples of the former Yugoslavia. However, you 
have also indicated that you consider yourself to be pro-European. What are 
your reasons for your opposition to nationalism? Do you consider yourself 
to hold pan-European ideas? 
In hindsight, inter-European nationalism has done irreparable harm to all 
peoples of European extraction, starting with civil war in America in 1861 
and then during the Great Civil War, WWI and WWII. Petty provincial 
nationalism at the expense of next door similar looking European neighbors 
is self- defeating. It serves the purpose of non-Europeans and other alien 
phenotypes. Even in terms of territorial imperative, petty nationalism is 
today outdated. The only solution lies in supra-statal pockets of cultural 
resistance by the Europeans in the USA, Chile, South Africa, Europe, all 
the way to Russia, i.e., in places where remnants of the European peoples 
still live. Failure to clearly define the enemy today may lead in the very 
near future to the definite demise of European heritage. Only in this 
extraterritorial way one must define oneself today as a European and no 
longer in a narrow autistic, chauvinistic, nation-state framework. 
You have spent a portion of your life in the United States. From my 
personal experience as an American living in Europe, I know that many 
Europeans have a false sense of reality when it comes to life in the USA. 
You, as a European who lived many years in the United States, have seen 
firsthand the difference between what is presented the movies and media 
that Europeans watch and the reality of the everyday American. Please share 
for our readers your thoughts on the subject. Also, please tell us 
something about Croatian-Americans. Are many of these immigrants 
politically active? 
The problem with all Eastern Europeans, including Croats, is an identity 
crisis and a deep inferiority complex. The lack of self- assertiveness, 
which is due to perpetual historical tremors in this region, often results 
in surreal and self-complacent political romanticism. Most Croats have 
inherited strong residues of the homo sovieticus mendacity combined with 
the Melrose Place soap opera dream world. Croat expatriates did play a 
significant role in financing Tudjman's campaign. However, they also live 
in their own dream worlds, romanticizing Croatia in folkoristique lime 
lights. There is also a fundamental psychological gap between Croats in 
Croatia and Croat expatriates. It is this vicarious misperception of two 
virtual worlds, respectively, that leads to the breakdown in communication. 
As far as the new post-Tudjman, left-leaning government in Croatia is 
concerned, it has shoved aside the Croatian expatriates. 
I would like for you to give our readers an assessment of the current 
Croatian government. Can you make a prediction regarding the next 
elections? If the presidential election were held today, in your opinion, 
who would win? 
The cumulative votes of opposition right-wing parties today could easily 
dislodge the current left-leaning government in a would-be election. Due to 
their constant bickering and clannish approach to body politics, this is 
hardly going to be the case. Although a small nation of 4 million citizens, 
Croatia has phenomenal regional differences between north and south and the 
Mediterranean Croats, who often make their electoral choices on the basis 
of their regional in-group decisions. Almost the same replica exists among 
expatriate Croats, unlike the Flemish, Irish, or Palestinian nationalists, 
who all have a solid supra-regional political platform. This endless 
infighting does not make Croatia a serious partner in the eyes of Western 
observers. It was only during Tudjman's leadership, a man with deep insight 
into Croatian diversity, that Croatia managed to become an independent 
state. The actual coalition government, which is made up of five 
left-leaning parties, has brought the country to administrative standstill. 
Croatia functions today by EU 
How is late Croatian President Franjo Tudjman remembered in Croatia? Many 
in the West consider him to be a war criminal that should have been tried 
in the Hague. However, during the war, Tudjman received the West's 
backing and seemed to know how to "play ball" with the Western powers. Is 
he remembered as the father of independent Croatia or has his reputation 
suffered as a result of criticism from the West? 
Tudjman's Croatia did not receive any backing from the West, not until 
1995. The emergence of Croatia was primarily the result of nameless 
volunteers, committed individuals with strong will to power. Prior to 1995, 
Croatia was subject to an arms embargo, just like the heavily armed rump 
Yugoslavia, i.e., Serbia. It had to build its administration and army from 
scratch. It was a moment that briefly united all Croats of different 
political persuasions. The EU never liked Tudjman. He was a former 
communist turned a staunch revisionist and anticommunist, a large enough 
reason for the Western opinion makers to isolate Croatia. The so-called 
international community is now firmly behind the more docile left-leaning 
government in Croatia. 
Speaking of the Hague, how is the issue of the extradition of Croatian war 
veterans treated by the Croatian press? How does the common Croat feel 
about the issue? On one hand, it seems that Croatia and Serbia are in the 
same boat. Both nations are being asked to send people some feel are war 
heroes to be judged by a foreign court in a foreign land. 
Even heroes do not last long. Again, Croat soldiers, due to the pressure of 
various international bodies, are often portrayed as a bunch of criminals. 
The Hague judiciary looks for "legal equidistance" between the Yugoslav 
aggressor and the Croat victims. Average Croats are bedazzled and 
bewildered. Whose gods should they trust today? 
Yet, I do not blame the Hague or the international community for their 
half-baked legal practices. Being a disciple of sociologist Vilfredo Pareto 
and the jurist Carl Schmitt, I blame the lack of leadership in Croatia, the 
lack of the new elites, and the lack of a meritocracy able to outsmart the 
often ignorant New World Order architects. Playing meek and hollering "mea 
culpa" won't help. Pareto wrote,"Whoever becomes a sheep will find a wolf 
to eat him." This is the case with the Croatian administration staffed by 
former communists with no initiative, many of whom have a murky past. 
In your opinion, should the Croatian government do anything to help the 
Bosnian Croats? It seems that they are in a rather difficult position, as 
their most popular politicians and political parties have been banned. It 
is quite clear that they feel as if they are not properly represented in 
the Bosnian government and that they would like to form an independent 
Croat state. Is there any chance that, in the future, the Bosnian Croatians 
could be annexed by Croatia? 
Playing dumb in politics is often a virtue, but living under the cover of 
delusions may be dangerous. Bosnia and Hercegovina form a small and belated 
replica of the failed multiethnic Yugoslavia. It can be upheld on the map, 
as it currently is, only by foreign, including US, troops and half-ignorant 
EU commissars. We must remember how former multiethnic Yugoslavia ended its 
voyage into the darkness. I have spoken with some foreign leaders and 
members of the media. They are aware of this make-believe country, but they 
must rhetorically abide by the new "multicultural role models." 
Croats and Serbs in Bosnia do not have the problem of deciding who to join 
in the putative future. By contrast, if Bosnian Muslims do not make their 
own executive decision about their identity, somebody else soon will in 
their stead. 
Mr. Sunic, please tell us about your latest book, Against Democracy and 
Equality. What are the basic ideas of this book? What was your motivation 
for writing it? 
This book is a survey of some prominent figures of the so-called 
conservative revolution of the first part of the XX century, such as the 
sociologist Vilfredo Pareto, the political scientist Carl Schmitt, the 
historian Oswald Spengler, and many others. The book also covers their new 
intellectual followers in today's European New Right. I am appalled by the 
dogmatic spirit and bias in the American and EU higher education, which has 
for decades been subject to leftist brainwashing and to fraudulent 
Freudo-Marxian scholasticism. I am also shocked by the false meritocracy in 
the American establishment and by the ridiculous affirmative action system, 
which definitely reminds me of the quota system in hiring that was in place 
in the ex-communist multiethnic Yugoslavia. The best and the brightest are, 
as a rule, shoved aside. The modern liberal theology of the big buck, the 
dictatorship of well-being, coupled with the false misnomer of 
"multiculturalism," destroys all values and all cultures, including our 
own. I do not blame non-Europeans, and I reject conspiracy theories. I 
primarily hold responsible lazy and corrupted academics, the modern media, 
and politicians who are mortgaging the Euro-American future. However, most 
likely, we need more chaos in our polity, because only out of chaos new 
elites and a new value system can emerge. 
Dr. Sunic, thank you very much for the interview! It was very informative 
and we at PRAVDA.Ru look forward to our further cooperation. 
The author is a writer and former political science professor in the USA. 
He is also a Croatian diplomat. Mr. Sunic writes from Europe. His website 
can be found at 
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